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CJ2A Suspension/Axles  
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/18/08
08:44 PM

Hi, i'm kind of a newbie so here we go.
What i'm starting on is a resto-mod CJ2A with more of an influence towards modern day driving. I want the look of a flatty with the drive of a modern vehicle.
What i've come across is the CJ2A original axles have gearing of about 5.38.. Which to me wouldn't be great for onroad. I want to be able to go onroad AND offroad with this willy's.
So far i've got a great CJ2A frame, with a 2.5inch lift spring set from Superlift, a shackle conversion kit also from Superlift. And 79' Toyota axles.

I know i'm going to have to move the spring perches for the axles. But how do i go about doing this? Do i just cut em off and weld em back on where i need them? And i know the wheels are going to stick out a bit on the sides, which isn't a big deal to me at all.

So....
1: How do i remove the spring perches without harming the axles?
2: How do i weld the new perches on without harming the axles?
3: And can anybody explain pinion angles or the like to me? I was reading online but it didn't help me much. How should i set these, and should i wait until i get a transmission and transfercase? I was planning on a ford NP435 and for the transfercase are there any suggestions? I'm putting a ford 302 in by the way.  


 
ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/19/08
06:27 AM

You will definitely come out way ahead in terms of cost, time spent and the overall success of the project if you start out with your specific obectives first.

Next, you would put together a bunch of scenarios for which parts would meet the objectives. Then, build a budget, which will help you pick the scenario that satisfies your budget and objectives.

Then go parts shopping. If you start accumulating parts first, it will force you to make decisions you may not want and cost will be higher for sure.

For example, an adapter for the tranny and TC could cost $500. Or you could get a tranny/TC combo that doesn't need an adapter.

And then the trannny/TC combo has a driverside front output, but you have a passenger side front diff.

Try to use assemblies that came together. It will cost more time and more money for every custom detail, so eliminate as many custom details as possible.

Buy a YJ with an AX15 5spd and a tilt column. Ya, you'll want the tilt. Build spring hangers for the 2A to adapt the YJ suspension. Use the YJ steering box also.

Now your down to the motor. It will cost less and you will have less custom details if you use a SBC instead of a Ford. Sorry, that's just the way it is. The support for Ford swaping pales in comparison to Chevy.

Remember, failing to plan is planning to fail. You should be looking for parts, the parts should not be looking for you.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/19/08
01:18 PM

Alright, well the YJ thing is out of the question because i've already got both front and rear springs and shackles.

I've already got everything to convert to power steering except the tilt steering column. Including a saginaw steering box from a 70' Nova.

Alright, good thing the 302 i got was a freeby anyways.

If i have a chevy engine though, won't the distributor get in the way of the firewall?  


 
ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/19/08
04:45 PM

Free parts are always the most expensive conversions.

If the springs are replacement springs for the 2A, and they have a lift built in, you'll only be making the suspension worse. They certainly won't bring it inline with modern spring/suspension design.

YJs are cheap. There are thousands of dollars worth of parts on a YJ that could be put to good use. And they are complete assemblies that work together. You'd be surpised what you can get a rusted out YJ for.

People weld pockets into the firewall on flaties to give room for the distibutor. Many SBCs reside in flatties. The steering linkage and headers are more of a problem than the distributor.

Remember the plan comes first, not I've already got these parts!  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/19/08
11:18 PM

Unfortunately i don't have the resources to fabricate my own hangers. So the ones i've got are the ones i'm using...

And as for finding a "rusted out YJ", that's going to be kind of hard around here.

I'm actually very positive i could get ford full runnming gear. Trans, engine, xcase etc out of a Ford ranger.  


 
mudb8-
Moderator | Posts: 3149 | Joined: 08/07
Posted: 08/19/08
11:27 PM

the chey distribtor doesn't get in the way, there plenty of room.  


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ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/20/08
05:09 AM

Sounds like what you're working on could be a lot of fun. And when finsished, could provide a lot of satisfaction.

Buy a MIG welder and take a weekend course at the local votec or community college. Welding and metal fabricating is not hard. You'll never be sorry you learned how to weld.

It will open up endless possibilities to you and change the way you approach your projects.

If your not interested in learning how to weld or open to the idea of custom fabrication and the expense that goes along with it, you may have taken on the wrong project.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/20/08
01:52 PM

The welding is one of the first things i plan on learning for when i need to do custom fabrication.

I know a little about welding from seeing my neighbors do it, and i guess he knows enough to make good strong reliable welds.

Thanks.
Anyways. Back to the main topic. :P
How do i move spring perches on an axle?
Cut em off grind the axle smooth and weld em where they need to be? As well as with the correct pinion angle?  


 
ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/20/08
05:09 PM

It is harder and more time consuming to cut them off and be able to reuse them.

I would buy brackets to weld back on. Then, you can just cut the old ones off close and grind it smooth. You don't want to grind into the axle tube at all. So, take your time.

The rear is pretty simple. But it should be the last thing you do, after your drive train is all set. That's the only way you'll know your pinion angle, unless a double cardin drive line is in your plans.

The front is much more difficult, and runs a high risk of being flat out wrong and not fixable. You have to pay attention to caster, camber, pinion angle and the spring location in referance to the diff. You can't just address the caster without affecting the pinion angle and the camber. It's a real juggling match. Many people get it wrong and never get the rig to drive right and suffer alignment and death wobble problems.

This would be my biggest reason for recomending axle and spring assemblies that work together. It's easy to build the spring hangers on the frame rails. There might be a chance that the only way you can get things right on the front axle is to cut off the knuckle mounts, spin 'em a little, and reweld them. Not easy or cheap, and it needs done in a jig.

There is a lot more to the advice that I've given you than you recognize.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/20/08
07:35 PM

So lets see.
I know the front spring perches are roughly a half inch to 1 inch off on both sides. So would it really affect too much to move them in about an inch? The toyotas themselves already have a bit more lift than a stock CJ2A..

I see what ya mean though. If i set the pinion angle right, but my caster is off. My camber could be set toe in or toe out.

I could take a chance and see how it ends up. Honestly i don't think it's going to be off by all that much when it comes to the pinion angle. the 20R had roughly the same amount of HP of the engine i'm putting in.. So wouldn't that set my pinion on both at around 2 degrees? I honestly don't think the caster or camber is going to be off by more than a degree. But i guess i'll find out. lol.

Also. Negative caster would mean more toe in, while Positive caster means more toe out.. right?  


 
ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/20/08
08:04 PM

Everything is relative to each other. Your pinion angle is affected by the lift and the drivetrain angle. Nothing about how the Toyota was setup matters. You have to figure out your setup.

Look up Caster, Camber, and Toe with reagrard to alignment. What you've written is not correct.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/20/08
08:25 PM

Oh i get it a bit better now...
Toe is adjusted by steering linkage..
Caster and Camber can't really be adjusted...
but pinion angle can.. but if the pinion angle is set right theres a chance the camber/caster could be all buggered up and the only way to fix it is by taking off the knuckle..... Well shoot.  


 
ftgiles
Guru | Posts: 1292 | Joined: 05/08
Posted: 08/20/08
09:43 PM

Rotating the purches on the axle housing will affect the pinion angle and the caster angle by the same amount. They can not be uncoupled. Sort of.

There is something called an offset ball joint. I don't know if they make them for Toyota, but for a Jeep Dana 30, they cost over $100 each, and you need 4 of them. They allow you to adjust the caster and camber up to 3 degrees. That's not very much, and you could easly be off by more than that trying to get a workable pinion angle. Point being, that's another $500.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/20/08
10:09 PM

Yeah..

I guess i'll just have to wait and see lol.

I just hope i'm not off by too much. I mean, if it actually turns out to be that bad then i'll just save up some dough and take it down to a machine shop and have them professionally cut and weld. Cuz they really have to have a high power welder.  


 
peow130
New User | Posts: 9 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 08/20/08
10:15 PM

I just realized something. Toyota Axles aren't setup like a Dana 30 at all.
http://www.milneroffroad.com/SWIVEL.JPG
That's a Toyota Front axle steering "Swivel Housing".
I don't think these axles even have ball joints..
They aren't a knuckle design type at all..  


 
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